Few tips on alpha training

[Jazz]

What many people dont think about when the dog has a poo is what is that poo to the dog?

Its food! If a dog was poorly nourished you will often see them gobble it up. Sometimes you can see dogs discover poo and snatch it up as they walk along. Dogs are naturally oportunist eaters and poo will do to a dog when hungry.
Pups show this instinct early, very few people will have a pup that doesnt, some may think they have but simply havent seen it and dont apreciate how good they are at cleaning it up sometimes.

Cleaning up after your dog in my book has less to do with cleanliness though that is important, but more from a dog view of being another way to reinforce dominance.

When dog poo's, be there immediately to pick it up. Its naturally what the mum might do in the wild with pups and its what dogs further up the chain would grab if not eaten by the dog itself.

Domestic pets still have all k-9 instincts in them its humans who overload them and confuse.

Nothing happens overnight.

[Jazz]

Dont discipline your dog for something that occured more than 2 seconds ago.

Its often hard to do especially when it has sh*t all over your cream shag pile.lol.

If you get on the dog in this way you will confuse the dog and often leads over time to a nervous or uneasy animal.

You have to catch the dog in the act to use disciplne effectively.

You simply have to follow the basics after the fact. Taking it out and heaping praise when it does it where you want.

Same with everything with a dog, its pointless giving discipline after the fact, it has to be in the act or the instant the act is over, otherwise dont!

Nothing happens overnight.

[kita]

I agree with Sasha, much of the 'dominance' theory has been disproved and shown to be inaccurately based on flawed studies of captive wolf 'packs'.

This article talks about it in much more detail than I can go into here:

http://www.4pawsu.com/dominancemyth.pdf

I would replace it with operant conditioning and positive reinforcement.

There is no need to be in constant conflict with your dog, if you go down the road of dominance training you constantly have to punish your dog (or keep it in line - dominate it).

I much prefer to have a cooperative relationship with my dogs, I am a human not a dog, I don't compete with him for his food (I am certainly not going to eat raw meat!!!) and he does not compete with me for my food (he is hardly likely to sit up to a table). He is a dog, not a human and we have different rules and a different language. It does not mean we cannot live together happily. I show him the behaviour I want and praise it (in whatever way applicable - food, toy, voice etc). He learns that in order to get what he wants he has to give me the behaviour I want. That way life is mutually beneficial and happy.

Sue

[Jazz]

Originally Posted by kita

I agree with Sasha, much of the 'dominance' theory has been disproved and shown to be inaccurately based on flawed studies of captive wolf 'packs'.

This article talks about it in much more detail than I can go into here:

http://www.4pawsu.com/dominancemyth.pdf

I would replace it with operant conditioning and positive reinforcement.

There is no need to be in constant conflict with your dog, if you go down the road of dominance training you constantly have to punish your dog (or keep it in line - dominate it).

I much prefer to have a cooperative relationship with my dogs, I am a human not a dog, I don't compete with him for his food (I am certainly not going to eat raw meat!!!) and he does not compete with me for my food (he is hardly likely to sit up to a table). He is a dog, not a human and we have different rules and a different language. It does not mean we cannot live together happily. I show him the behaviour I want and praise it (in whatever way applicable - food, toy, voice etc). He learns that in order to get what he wants he has to give me the behaviour I want. That way life is mutually beneficial and happy.

Sue

What someone is doing here is what people have done for years in dog world to make a name or money.

What about the many studies carried out on wild wolf packs, have they been disproved?

Coditioning/cooperative???/ words for people to think they understand something they very often dont.

If this system works so well why dont we see it adopted at the highest levels in dog training?(and weekend dogshows at local gymkana is not what I mean and certainly not crufts)

It all depends what you want from a dog and I have read many a NEW METHOD and ideology on this subject, most of it is wishy washhy rewards galore mentality, you can see alot of this at the weigh in clinic.lol

My dog for her age is a well adjusted bitch , very happy and incredibly willing and fit. Not one treat has passed her lips, she gets nothing more than fuss for doing well and occasionally a ball workout for fitness.She gets the odd chew stick but its just for being there not for doing something

She is 1 yr this week and can successfully do the following.
1 speak on command
2 walk to heel on and off the lead
3 retrieve
4 recall
5 sit stay and out of sight stay
6 down stay and out of sight stay
7 search to a reasonable standard
8 begun learning to track
9 introduced to moderate agility
10 send away and re-direct (all the above to near basic trial standards)
11. carry out distance commands...sit/down/stand/speak
12.Can be put into down stay while in the run for a ball before getting it, and recall without going for the ball.
13.will be quiet when I want
14. will go in her space when I want
15. doesnt go after the kids pets
16.will even pee and poo in an area 2 yds suare at home every time
17. doesnt chew things other than what shes allowed to
18.never runs off
19. Is not an agressor
20. I think I will stop now and ask you.......What am I doing wrong as this method you promote so well is obviously the way forward for achieveing greater standards earlier in a dogs life. can you tell me how long youve had your dog and what your dog can do with this method as I am always looking for some expert advice.........


Most dog training is done by people who dont always know what they are doing, dont always understand what they were told or what they read and sometimes what they read is nothing more than an angle to make money and designed for the gullable Im sorry to say.What are you gonna do when the treat pocket is suddenly empty?

Dog handling /training/ owning properly is about time/effort/commitment/understanding the animal (domestic or other)
Its about taking advantage of moments not creating moments with sweeties.
I can tell we are not likely to see eye to eye on this one as you are from another world of thought,Ive said some of what I want to but Im not gonna waste the rest.Just one final comment...if you think being dominant = punishment and constantly at odds with dog, you are a fool plain and simple. Whoever told you dominant means punishment is a pratt. You obviously have no idea what the animal kingdom sees as dominance,being dominant over your dog is absolutely right/correct and spot on for the dog. Proof of the pudding is in the eating so how good is your dog or does it just eat the pudding?

[kita]

I really don't see any call to use that tone of language!

I am not a fool and I am not gullible.

My dog can do all of the things you say your dog can do and more - I don't need competitions or public adoration to prove his worth to me. He can be handled by a child easily. He is not food orientated and will not work for food. He is far from overweight.

My present dog is now 13 and is a very strong willed, independent breed who think for themselves and cannot be handled/trained very easily. I know for a fact that you could not handle/train him with the attitude that you have.

I have never earned any money from dog training, everything I do is given freely. I am not in this to make a name for myself (no one knows my real name anyhow) and I never said I am an expert or that I know everything. When a person says they know it all about dog/animal training it usually means they have shut their minds to anything new and different.

As for studies of wild wolf packs here is one (if you can be bothered to read/understand it):

http://www.4pawsu.com/267alphastatus_english.pdf

You cannot get more scientific or up to date than that!

Or are you going to tell me that is rubbish too?

Please refrain from using personal abuse in future, I did not call you a fool or an idiot or put down your ideas.

Maybe you have just joined this forum to cause trouble and promote your ideas - or maybe you are in this just to make a name for yourself or sell something?

I notice you don't sign your posts with your name?

Sue

[GSDOWNER]

please remember everyone has an opinion which may differ from yours!

[GSDOWNER]

Must add on to what kita said my dog had done most of that by 6 mths and was asked to demonstrate at crufts, because he had the ability to work.......but sadly that never happened


but at nearly 4 he did run away after a bitch on heat the other night lol sending me flying, so number 18 needs working on

but in your defense I was taught the way you are teaching, yes is works and it worked for my dog, but I no; no other way of training my dog, but I have graduated treats and toys and nothing seems to have changed, other than running after bitches in heat,

[tazman]

personal abuse will not be tolerated on this forum, opinions will differ so please keep that in mind when answering or starting new threads

[Jazz]

Originally Posted by kita

I really don't see any call to use that tone of language!

I am not a fool and I am not gullible.

My dog can do all of the things you say your dog can do and more - I don't need competitions or public adoration to prove his worth to me. He can be handled by a child easily. He is not food orientated and will not work for food. He is far from overweight.

My present dog is now 13 and is a very strong willed, independent breed who think for themselves and cannot be handled/trained very easily. I know for a fact that you could not handle/train him with the attitude that you have.

I have never earned any money from dog training, everything I do is given freely. I am not in this to make a name for myself (no one knows my real name anyhow) and I never said I am an expert or that I know everything. When a person says they know it all about dog/animal training it usually means they have shut their minds to anything new and different.

As for studies of wild wolf packs here is one (if you can be bothered to read/understand it):

http://www.4pawsu.com/267alphastatus_english.pdf

You cannot get more scientific or up to date than that!

Or are you going to tell me that is rubbish too?

Please refrain from using personal abuse in future, I did not call you a fool or an idiot or put down your ideas.

Maybe you have just joined this forum to cause trouble and promote your ideas - or maybe you are in this just to make a name for yourself or sell something?

I notice you don't sign your posts with your name?

Sue

I would dearly like to watch your fantastic dog in action on all counts listed, but that wont happen will it?
I called everyone who belives the statement I made, a fool and I stick by it.
Yes your dog is 13 I see and not a strong willed pup or teen.
So your personal attack on my opinions is not the same thing then?
Please read the definition of dominant before telling me it means punishment.
Dont assume what I am or what my intent is as you are wrong on both counts
What have I promoted with a link? Nothing!
what have I suggested as a new method of dog training that poo poo's natural and recognised training method?Nothing!

So where is your evidence that I am after making a name for myself when my Name isnt even published?

You see you have got yourself so wound up because you feel you can tell me something untrue or at best something you think works, based on something you have bought into and hapily promote.

Mine is through proven experiences nothing else.Im not saying everything I do is perfect and Im always open to good ideas and new ideas, but not to be put down by someone who wont rise to the challenge.

You said YOU know for a FACT I couldnt train your dog, well Im sorry but to say something as utterly childish and ridiculous as that sums you up. Are you about 18 or something? Oh and what MORE! can your dog do? You used that in your childish reply, I used my comments as an example of the way I train dogs and the results I get to clearly show my methods work. My bitch is 1 yr old and hasnt had the benefit of 13yrs of treats lol.

Finally, when did I say i know it all? I never! But for your information as you clearly dont read things carefully...

I have a background in working trials (I assume you know what they are?)
I did this for more than 15 yrs after leaving the army. all my dogs have letters after their names whooopeee! with the exception of this one. I have rescued problem dogs/trained problem dogs and worked with numerous dogs over many yrs. Ive owned 8 of my own and including early family pets you can double this.

You are a very judgemental person when you are wound up, I speak from years of experience of many dogs and finding training methods that work the best , yet you seem to judge me in a childish manner so lets leave well alone shall we.

Oh and ref alpha status....its another scientific study, science is not fact, do you know how many scientific studies/reports/ideas have changed over generations with the latest technology or whizz kid. The earth is still flat isnt it? surely you would agree with early science about that?

[GSDOWNER]

*oks puts suit of armour on, omg so not needed this since c4 forums, lol bit dusty sorry*

I agree with both, if it works it is not broken so why fix it.........

Jazz george was trained on your methods and I failed him when I gave him the toy box,

Since george was diagnosed with HD, I have slipped and taken advice and the advice seems to be working, so I am in the middle, both training techniques work, but the latter method seems to have worked for george for the past two years, he is my dog who knows his place *and currently he is fast asleep on the couch *