Keeps Attacking other Dog

[Cleo38]

Roxy is our 3yrs old (spayed) GSD that has been with us for a few weeks now having come from a rescue centre (we are her 4th owners).

She is quite exciteable (although not as bad) & has a few issues when meeting other dogs when out on walks which are working on.

However, I'm getting a bit more concerned about her behaviour towards Toby our exisiting dog (7yrs, neutered, GSD/Lab). Most of the time she seems to really like him, constantly follows him, wants to be with him, licks his face, etc but she does barge him about a bit, always wants to get ahead of him whilst walking which he doesn't seem too bothered about.

The problem seems to be that on several occassions she has gone for him with no warning or obvious reason why. There has been a couple of times when this has occurred over toys or when she caught a vole & he wanted it which I can understand. There also has been a few times when they have had a 'bicker' & I just let them sort it out but the occassions I am concerned about have been quite full on although she hasn't pierced his skin or damaged him physically, just scared him.

They do play together quite well at times, they both seem to like a rough & tumble so it's not as if they hate each other

Last night I was on the floor stroking Roxy, my OH was on the sofga with Toby. Everyone was calm & all of a sudden she stood up, went really still (no gorwling) & just went for Toby. I had to grab her scruff & drag her off of him, my OH got bitten in the process as he couldn't move out of the way quick enough (she didn't purposefully attack him but was trying to get to Toby).

I don't understand as shew as getting attention so was this jealousy related? If she wants to be with anyone then it's usually me tbh.

Should I be worried about this behaviour? IS this normal for dogs settling in? And how should I deal with this when it happens again/

I'm trying to not to get too upset about it but Toby is starting to become scared of her & has started following me everywhere & not wanting to be with her. I'd hate top see him change from a confident, happy dog because of this. I don't know if I'm also not helping him as maybe I'm 'babying' him too much after these incidents but it breaks my heart to see him so upset.

If anyone has got any tips on how to mange this or any experience then I would be really grateful.

[pamella]

i'm certainly no expert but could it be she wants to be the pack leader over your other dog?
i'm sure someone more experienced will be along soon to give some advice.

[kita]

Originally Posted by Cleo38

Roxy is our 3yrs old (spayed) GSD that has been with us for a few weeks now having come from a rescue centre (we are her 4th owners).

She is quite exciteable (although not as bad) & has a few issues when meeting other dogs when out on walks which are working on.

She is still finding her feet and finding out about the house rules. This could take quite a number of weeks.

Do you take her out on her own? (Without Toby). That is usually a good idea as it forms a bond with you better.

Originally Posted by Cleo38

However, I'm getting a bit more concerned about her behaviour towards Toby our exisiting dog (7yrs, neutered, GSD/Lab). Most of the time she seems to really like him, constantly follows him, wants to be with him, licks his face, etc but she does barge him about a bit, always wants to get ahead of him whilst walking which he doesn't seem too bothered about.

The problem seems to be that on several occassions she has gone for him with no warning or obvious reason why. There has been a couple of times when this has occurred over toys or when she caught a vole & he wanted it which I can understand. There also has been a few times when they have had a 'bicker' & I just let them sort it out but the occassions I am concerned about have been quite full on although she hasn't pierced his skin or damaged him physically, just scared him.

There is always a warning and a reason why - you just have not seen it. It is very rare that there is no reason and usually when it occurs it is medical (like a brain tumour or something).

Have you had her checked over by a vet since you got her?

It might also be an idea to have Toby checked too - sometimes dogs notice conditions with other dogs that we have not seen.

I would avoid leaving them with toys for now, especially if they are causing fights. Play/train with the toys and then remove them.

Originally Posted by Cleo38

They do play together quite well at times, they both seem to like a rough & tumble so it's not as if they hate each other

Last night I was on the floor stroking Roxy, my OH was on the sofga with Toby. Everyone was calm & all of a sudden she stood up, went really still (no gorwling) & just went for Toby. I had to grab her scruff & drag her off of him, my OH got bitten in the process as he couldn't move out of the way quick enough (she didn't purposefully attack him but was trying to get to Toby).

I don't understand as shew as getting attention so was this jealousy related? If she wants to be with anyone then it's usually me tbh.

If there is no growling it could be that she has been punished for this in the past. Sometimes dogs that have been punished for growling just move straight to biting - that is why if you use punishment it has to be precisely timed.

It may also be that she had been punished in the past for getting up on the sofa, possibly she was telling Toby he should not be there, trying to get him off before he got hit/punished. My rescue girl used to do that. She used to try and drive my other two away from us when they came over for a cuddle - she was simply scared for them that they were going to get hit.

I don't think this is a leadership/Alpha issue - dogs don't really think like that. Each dog will 'lead' the pack at different times, some on a walk, some over toys, some over food.

By the way the worst place to grab a fighting dog is round its scruff, that is where the other dog is aiming for (I got badly bitten by my own dog because I grabbed her by the scruff just as her sister grabbed there). The best place to get hold of is the tail.

How badly was your OH bitten? Hope it did not upset him too much. It can be a shock when you are bitten by your own dog and it can affect the way you handle them in future if you are not careful.

What were the dogs like immediately after you separated them?

Is Toby allowed to get away from her if he wants? eg does he have his own bed that he can retire to?

Has Toby been an only dog up until now?

Sue

[Cleo38]

Thanks for the replies.

Sue:

I completely agree that she is finding her feet & a few weeks is a short space of time. She has been passed around quite a bit in her short life so i'm not suprised she has a few 'issues'.

My OH seems to think that things will sort themselvbes out & whilst I can appreciate this this does happen I don't want to let things slip so that these incidents become more frequent.


I usually don't let them have toys/chews at the moment as this has caused a couple of (minor) incidents so we are quite vigilant with this. Watching them it is apparent that she does try to wind Toby up a bit, if she gets a stick she teases him with it until he wants it then won't let him have it - I've seen this sort of behaviour with my sisters pup & just put it down to her being quite a young dog.

Unfortunately in the evenings (weekdays) I have to walk both at the same time as my OH has broken his ankle & I don't have time to do x2 hour long walks with them both. Would shorter walks be more beneficial? then I worry they wouldn't be getting enough excercise.

Weekends I have started to walk them seperately as she has a tendancy to get over excited with new situations so I am trying to get her to meet other dogs, cows, horses, etc & she is easier to control on her own.

Unfortunately a couple of times now there has been no grow prior to the attack - I also have read that dogs should not be reprimanded for growling so have never done this but don't know what she was taught in the past.

She is booked in with the vets next week just for a check up - Toby also went in last week for check up & booster vaccs so is in good health.

I know form other forums that dragging dogs by their collar or scruff is not a good idea as it can cause more aggression but I really didn't know where else to aim for - as my OH was in amongst them at that point (Toby was sleeping across his lap when this happened) & his ankle injury meant he couldn't move quickly enough so I just reacted. I'll go for her tail if it happens again - despite that I still didn't want to hurt her.

I literally dragged gher off, opened the door & threw her outside the lounge door. Toby was shaken up so consolled him (oh & my OH!!) & heard Roxy drinking water (she does drink quite alot - I'll mention this to the vet). She sat down & waitied to come back in. My OH thought it best to let her after a while so she came back in & got on to the chair (they are allowed on all furniture) & curled up. she did look quite worried as I had really shouted at her, she was nervously looking at me alot but I did go & sit with her after a while.

Toby has been an only dog up until now (he's a rescue dog as well & I don't belive he's lived with another dog in the past). He's such a friendly boy though that I don't want him to become scared of her & he really seemed to be last night.

my OH has sent me pics of them today running round the garden & playing really well together which has cheered me up. It also seeems like Roxy does really like Toby most of the time 7 is always looking out for him, wants to sit near him, etc so i'm confused as to why she does this.

How should i react when this happens? Should I tell her off? Should I keep them apart for a while? Am I fussing Toby too much which is making him more of a 'mummy's boy' & making her feel more isolated?

I really want them to get on so much as when they do they look like they have such fun. Sorry for the incredibly long response, just wanted to get all the info in!!!!


Sorry - for got to add that my OH is fine, he knows that it was just becuase he got in the way

[kita]

Originally Posted by Cleo38

I usually don't let them have toys/chews at the moment as this has caused a couple of (minor) incidents so we are quite vigilant with this. Watching them it is apparent that she does try to wind Toby up a bit, if she gets a stick she teases him with it until he wants it then won't let him have it - I've seen this sort of behaviour with my sisters pup & just put it down to her being quite a young dog.

Sounds like quite normal behaviour!!! Especially from females! Wouldn't worry about that at all.

Originally Posted by Cleo38

Unfortunately in the evenings (weekdays) I have to walk both at the same time as my OH has broken his ankle & I don't have time to do x2 hour long walks with them both. Would shorter walks be more beneficial? then I worry they wouldn't be getting enough excercise.

Weekends I have started to walk them seperately as she has a tendancy to get over excited with new situations so I am trying to get her to meet other dogs, cows, horses, etc & she is easier to control on her own.

As long as you walk her sometimes on her own that will be enough to build a bond with her, its just that if you only ever walk them all together they tend to build more of a bond with the other dog and tend to become too dependent on each other.

Originally Posted by Cleo38

as my OH was in amongst them at that point (Toby was sleeping across his lap when this happened) & his ankle injury meant he couldn't move quickly enough so I just reacted. I'll go for her tail if it happens again - despite that I still didn't want to hurt her.

I literally dragged gher off, opened the door & threw her outside the lounge door. Toby was shaken up so consolled him (oh & my OH!!) & heard Roxy drinking water (she does drink quite alot - I'll mention this to the vet). She sat down & waitied to come back in. My OH thought it best to let her after a while so she came back in & got on to the chair (they are allowed on all furniture) & curled up. she did look quite worried as I had really shouted at her, she was nervously looking at me alot but I did go & sit with her after a while.

Toby has been an only dog up until now (he's a rescue dog as well & I don't belive he's lived with another dog in the past). He's such a friendly boy though that I don't want him to become scared of her & he really seemed to be last night.

my OH has sent me pics of them today running round the garden & playing really well together which has cheered me up. It also seeems like Roxy does really like Toby most of the time 7 is always looking out for him, wants to sit near him, etc so i'm confused as to why she does this.

How should i react when this happens? Should I tell her off? Should I keep them apart for a while? Am I fussing Toby too much which is making him more of a 'mummy's boy' & making her feel more isolated?

If Toby was asleep then he cannot have done anything to provoke the situation - if she was jealous of him I would have thought she would go for him earlier (when he first got on your OH's lap). How long had you been fussing her? Did you have the TV on? Were you talking? Just wondering if there was a certain word or noise that could have triggered the attack.

If there really was no possible trigger it may be worth mentioning that one to your vet.

The fact that Toby seemed to be scared of her afterwards also makes me wonder if it could be something medical. When my dogs have had a fight they used to either totally forget it instantly or they were both on tenterhooks after and both willing to start again.

Sometimes you have to be careful when you re introduce after a fight as things can instantly kick off again, but in your case it sounds like Toby is not fighting back and she is not carrying the fight on. I would not keep them apart for long, as the longer they are separate the harder/more dodgy it gets to re introduce them.

Going for the scruff is probably a safe option if the other dog is not fighting back - I only got bitten because both dogs were fighting with a vengance (they were litter sisters, not good!). Sometimes you just have to grab wherever you can.

I would get the vet to give her a thorough check over, tell him she seems to drink a lot and about the unprovoked aggression to your other dog, see what he/she thinks.

Sue

PS All my dogs were allowed on the furniture as well and I never had any problems with them fighting - in fact my big guy used to wait for my little BSD to get off the chair before he would get on, the same when she wanted on, sometimes he still had a back leg on the chair and she was already curled up in his place!!! So don't let anyone tell you it is because they are on the furniture and they are being 'dominant'.

[sami]

Not much to add (Sue is great!!) but just thought I would confirm the health thing.

Leo has infrequent epileptic fits. When his dad Max was alive he would attack Leo when he started into a fit. He also a couple of times attacked him just before he started to fit. These were major attacks not just scuffles and Leo was terrified. I always had to jump in and seperate them and then keep them apart until Leo finished fitting.

It was made worse by Max being a real mummys boy and me having to stay with Leo while he was fitting. As soon as Leo was back to normal i would bring him back in the room and they would be fine.
Tracy

[Cleo38]

It's definitley not a fit or anything like that & am not sure it's medical (although am still going to get her checked) as the first couple of weeks she was fine.

She has just nearly gone for him again - similar situation. Toby was asleep in the chir with my OH sitting in fron of him, As my OH turned round to give Toby some fuss Roxy suddenly looked up, ears stading up & just had 'a look about her' (she was on the sofa next to me at this point.). She looked slighly 'stiffer' than usual

I thought she was going to for him then but she didn't, she got up & went to sit in the chair opposite Toby & my OH. I told my OH to fuss Toby again as I was waiting for her to go. Sure enough she went to shoot up, this time she growled briefly but I caught her & chucked her out of the room again.

She was out for about 2mins then has come back, got back in to the chair & is now asleep.

Again Toby didn't want to come back to where we are sitting but we've coaxed him back & he is back in his chair with my OH in front of him again.

It's obviously some sort of trigger with my OH. I don't know why but it does seem to be (the last couple of times) when my OH is fussing Toby yet he's said that as he is home all day he strokes them both, plays with them & she's fine. He said that they were both out in the garden nearly all day running about playing, he was watching them from the window & they seemed fine.

I'm not sure if he's just trying to make me less worried but I definitely think Toby is tending to shy away from her alot more lately. When she first arrived he seemed quite taken with her but now I'm not so sure.

Maybe Roxy has bonded more with your OH in her settling in period, esp if he's there during the day with them, so him fussing Toby she gets jealous. She will have bonded with Toby first, following him etc, and then they choose a human. If this human is to her interacting with Toby more, she's wanting to stop that maybe?

You don't want this to become a learned behaviour with Roxy, or poor Toby won't want a fuss from your OH if a fight results. Toby's shying away because he's unsure of her; you can understand why he didn't want to go back to the chair - it's usually a nice place where he gets a fuss and now he's getting attacked in that nice place. They're so sensitive.

You need to watch for the body language change in Roxy, to interact before it happens like you mentioned. The lack of growl might be as Sue says a previous telling off, so she doesn't give much warning. Can your OH sit with them both on the sofa and see what happens to both their behaviour? Maybe if something kicks off he should be the one correcting Roxy, for now, and see what she does.

When I got Zee I made a point of fussing Remus more and virtually ignoring Zee while she settled in. I did training with her but didn't give a lot of fuss / cuddles, so Remus knew he was still my boy and this bossy madam had to learn her place. During that time Remus decided he preferred to sit on the sofa with me too, possibly to get away from her pestering him! Zee never gets up even now but sits by my leg or lays at my feet. Like Sue I don't have a problem with dogs on sofas etc, as long as the dog gets off when you tell it.

I fuss mine both equally, but when I'm stroking one and the other tries to muscle-in I turn my back and ignore the demanding one - they both do it. Sometimes the ignored one will then bring me a toy (nice try!) It's never progressed to a bite on the other one, though past issues really affect things, and I think that's what's going on with Roxy.

[Cleo38]

We had a second incident last night & again I still have no idea what the trigger was.

This time each dog was sitting in a chair (they are facing each other). Roxy woke up, panting a bit, the room was warm-ish but not overly so but she was pnating a bit. I let her in to the kitchen to get a drink of water. She then came back in to the living room, tail wagging (in a friendly way) & stood in the middle of the room looking towards Toby (who was still sleeping, surled up, facing the back of the chair).

I wasn't near toby neither was my OH but again she suddenly stiffened, her tails went low & stopped wagging ears went up & she went to lunge forward at him snapping very aggressively.

Again, I grabbed her by her scruff with my left hand & my right just grabbed her fur (she's quite ling haired) - she really yelped as I must have hurt her by pulling her back so quickly. will this make things worse? She was put outside again as previously then let in after a few mins.

I am speaking to the rescue centre again aboout this & will be buying some DAP spray - does anyone think this may help? She was previously on Zylkene which we stopped as she appeared to calm down, maybe I should start her back on these again.

I really don't know what to do as the attacks on Toby have increased, he was so scared of her last night that he wouldn't go in the garden with her to have a wee before bed, I took them seperately in the end. I also was so angry with her (I know I shouldn't be ) that she didn't come to bed with me & Toby like she usually does. As my OH has his broken ankle he is sleeping downastairs at the moment as he can't get up our stairs so she styed in the living room with him.

I don't know if seperating the dogs at bed time was a good idea or not - I was just worried that if she went for Toby at night then I wouldn't react quickly enough.

When on his own upstairs with me he seemed happier, I hate seeing him looking so worried as he' was such a happy dog before. I feel terrible as I only got a second dog as I thought he would really benefit form some company.

She seemed pleased to see him this morning when we went out for our walk but he was not overly keen on seeing her.

[J&J]

What background information were the rescue able to give you about Roxy and why she found herself being rehomed so many times...

Was it the rescue who put her on Zylkene or a previous owener?

A couple of question you need to find out..

Why was the Zylkene introduced?
Does it have a withdrawal reaction/symptoms?
And why was she put on Zylkene?

As to DAP, I'ved used the spray my experience with it, is that it took the edge off a very stressed dog just enough to start desensition training methods, when I say take the edge off Jones was still stressed...

It may be that who ever decided to put her on Zylkene did so for a quick fix and not actually worked with her to solve the under lying problem..

At the moment me, I would seriously consider putting her back on it, as an intrim method, while working out the source of the problem and impliment a training program to resolve it..

A real off shoot, this seems to be an evening think happening after dark, could there be an eyesight issue for her, a reaction to household lighting and the shadows they cast around the room?