is it time for the "snip"?

BADGE · #1 20-10-10, 01:57 PM

Hi....hope someone can help me with 2 "not so small" problems,Cain is 14 months old,had socialisation/training etc,he is good as gold out walking with me,never have any problem but my wife(who desperatly wants to walk him)cant as he constantly jumps up mouthing her arm guite badly so now she cant walk him at all. In desperation she contacted a 1 to 1 trainer who said she couldnt help untill after castration! as this is (as i suspected) DOMINANCE. On browsing this forum i was reading a thread on neutering & got confused on when to go ahead. Any suggestions please!!

Caryll · #2 20-10-10, 02:09 PM

I would not NORMALLY neuter before about 18 months/2 years. However, there are times when it's better earlier than later.

However, again, I'm surprised that the 1 to 1 trainer has said she couldn't help at all unless he was castrated. Has she even worked with him yet?

Dominance can often be addressed by training the owner! I'm not telling you not to castrate, just that you need to be aware of why he's displaying this behaviour, and whether it can be solved any other way. After all, there's no guarantee that castration will change things.

kita · #3 20-10-10, 02:37 PM

I would find another trainer.

The 'Dominance' theory has been proved many times to be wrong, dogs just don't think like that. That way of training is very outdated and can lead to more problems than it solves.

Here are a couple of articles on why it is outdated and wrong:

Dog Whisperer

What′s wrong with using ‘dominance&rs to explain the behaviour of dogs?

Look for a good trainer that does not talk about 'dominance' or 'Alpha' - and definitely find one that will at least see your dog BEFORE recommending any 'training' let alone surgery!!!

Often good behaviourists work through vets - a good trainer will ask you to see a vet first to rule out any medical conditions that may affect behaviour.

What do you walk him in? (Normal collar, halti etc).

Sue

PS The dog in my avatar is the size of a Great Dane and was entire all his life, I walked him throughout his life in VERY busy areas and I am not a big person (or a dominant one!). He always responded better to me than to my OH to be honest - he used to play him up something terrible

BADGE · #4 20-10-10, 03:10 PM

he wears a halti but the problem persists with a gencon/half check/standard leather collar.

LOVEGSD · #5 20-10-10, 03:29 PM

I would steer clear of that trainer also, I am shocked that they said they couldn't help until he was castrated!!!

I think with the help of a good trainer you will be able to crack this, maybe your wife needs to join some classes and do the training herself to establish a bond with him.

Sassysmum · #6 20-10-10, 03:54 PM

Definately agree with Kita

the whole Dominance thing gets used too often, it is a bit of an "old" fashioned way of looking at our best friends to be honest. After all, they are intelligent enough to know that we are NOT dogs ourselves are they not?

Try looking at this website Welcome to APDT - Association of Pet Dog Trainers UK its for the association of pet dog trainers

These trainers use the most up to date methods and are very often "proper" behaviourists also. There may be one in your area so worth a look.

Please be careful who you go to as many "trainers" cause more problems and still believe in de ranking programmes which to be honest cause both dog and human much misery. Many are too happy to use quick fixes instead of getting to the bottom of the problem and resolving it properly.

Please do not be led to believe that castration will solve this problem as if it is a learned behaviour it will need addressing and re-training will be necessary.

#7 20-10-10, 05:31 PM

My GSD is nearly 2 and was neutered early (under 1 year old) before we had him. He does the mouthing thing when my OH takes him out and first lets him off-lead. He'll run back and grab his arm police dog style and bark at him. He never does these behaviours with me.

He pulls on the lead more with OH too and as Sue says just plays my OH up more. If we're both walking them, I often end up taking both dogs because whichever one he has, it pulls.

I'm not a trainer. I use positive methods, that's not to say I don't correct my dogs... little buggars

but I never dominate them. That, to me, is just wrong.

zetstaff · #8 20-10-10, 07:34 PM

For me, Cesar Milan has all the answers. Dogs need a pack leader + if they haven't got one, they'll try + assume the role themselves. That's where the 'dominance' comes in. The pack leader is the dominant one, ie the leader, the others are followers.

Dogs have to know that the human/s are in charge, ie the leader/s. I don't mean by using any type of force, but by being assertive. Where more than 1 person owns a dog, they all have to assertive. The dog/s have to know that they are the bottom of the pecking order. That's what would happen in the wild to 'followers'.

As for castration, it won't necessarily calm a dog down but my view is if a dog is not going to be bred from, it should be neutered. That can help dispel aggression. Also there are the usual health benefits.

I had my dog neutered when he was 11 months old + was the best decision we made. He is calmer, still barmy

but more laid back. I think the key to the behaviour is to get yourself another trainer who will recognise that you as 'leaders' need a bit of help in making sure your dog knows that he is a 'follower'

Good luck x

Stuart · #9 20-10-10, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zetstaff

For me, Cesar Milan has all the answers. Dogs need a pack leader + if they haven't got one, they'll try + assume the role themselves. That's where the 'dominance' comes in. The pack leader is the dominant one, ie the leader, the others are followers.

Dogs have to know that the human/s are in charge, ie the leader/s. I don't mean by using any type of force, but by being assertive. Where more than 1 person owns a dog, they all have to assertive. The dog/s have to know that they are the bottom of the pecking order. That's what would happen in the wild to 'followers'.

I am not convinced about this `pack leader` way of thinking, there maybe a top dog in a wild pack, but no absolute leader.

I think I would much rather see my dogs as equal members of this pack of ours, with us humans giving them direction, training goes better when the dog wants to do it,... but thats another thread

Sam was neutured just as he became a year old, many dogs never change at all afterwards, Sam simply got more loveing towards us, before he was always just that little big distant,.. haveing him `done` brought out a lot of love, he was always a good dog,.. but I am pleased to say that he got even better

kita · #10 20-10-10, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BADGE

Hi....hope someone can help me with 2 "not so small" problems,Cain is 14 months old,had socialisation/training etc,he is good as gold out walking with me,never have any problem but my wife(who desperatly wants to walk him)cant as he constantly jumps up mouthing her arm guite badly so now she cant walk him at all. In desperation she contacted a 1 to 1 trainer who said she couldnt help untill after castration! as this is (as i suspected) DOMINANCE. On browsing this forum i was reading a thread on neutering & got confused on when to go ahead. Any suggestions please!!

It is very difficult to give advice without seeing the dog in action. Also difficult because we are hearing about it from you rather than your wife (you couldn't persuade her to come on and tell us about it could you?).

At what point does he start to jump up and mouth? Does he do it the minute she puts the lead on? Or is it 10 mins. into the walk? Or 20 mins. into the walk? Does he do it more if he sees another dog?

What does your wife do when he starts this?

Does she let him off the lead at all?

From the little bit you have told us it sounds to me like frustration, he has all this pent up fitness/youth and he is dying to have a good run and play. She is confining him to walking on a short lead and he is getting frustrated by it, so he plays up.

He is very much a teenager and he wants to go and run and sniff and play and fight and meet girls and freedom NOW.

Would he carry something (like a toy/glove etc) in his mouth? If his mouth is full he cannot mouth her arm. Try and train him to 'hold' something.

The other option may be to get him used to wearing a baskerville type muzzle and for her to walk him in that for a while (if he goes off lead you can take it off) that way he would not be able to grab at her arm and she could at least walk him and bond with him better.

It is possible that he does not do this with you as you are more 'fun' in his eyes, maybe you let him off lead faster, or let him sniff more, maybe you just walk faster and are more exciting on the walk.

Do try and get your wife to come on here - we are all pretty friendly - honest

I do know what she is going through as I have had a dog that did this, it really is no fun, but I managed to work through it and I am sure she can.

Sue